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Post by Jessica on May 17, 2007 16:52:31 GMT -5
I just talked to Anneliese, and it seems like this group is gonna get a lot bigger. I think we may see a Jenn exile tomorrow.
I am not sure if this plan will still work. It all comes down to whether or not jack/carrie/arthur/shane are gonna stick with judith or change to jenn.
If we try and it fails, we have an angry judith, if we try and it succeeds, we will have an angry jenn. I think this plan may end up dying out as it could be a lose-lose situation.
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Post by Claire on May 17, 2007 21:12:09 GMT -5
Now I understand this thread...sneaky little demon Judith is!
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Post by Tenchi on May 17, 2007 22:09:58 GMT -5
Its a toss up. But I think I convinced Arthur to go Judith.
I on the other hand am rethinking. Rei and Jenn might shake things up tomorrow.
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Post by Raphael on May 17, 2007 22:12:48 GMT -5
After talking with Carrie a little tonight, she seems to be leaning towards Judith. I also have been talking a lot with Anne, like you suggested Tenchi, and have been working on forming a nice relationship with her. She tells me that she is voting for Judith as well. That is how I am going to put in my vote and am about to do so.
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Post by Jessica on May 18, 2007 13:59:29 GMT -5
Does anyone know how many votes are going at judy?
I want to make it look like I am trying to defend her, but I dont wanna push too hard or I could save her.
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Post by Claire on May 18, 2007 14:21:55 GMT -5
I heard, from Judy, that most of the votes are for Carrie tonight. However she was probably just trying to make sure I vote for Carrie...and I did. I'm pretty sure Brooks is voting Carrie too. I actually haven't heard anyone voting for Judy except for you guys.
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Post by Bebe on May 18, 2007 14:49:09 GMT -5
as far as i know, the civilians who are voting for judith are:
jack shane carrie anneliese maybe trina maybe taylor
i don't know anything about how miles, bruce, jennipher, arthur, reicheru, matthew, jordan, or sujata are voting
voting carrie:
brooks judith
my knowledge is basically what i heard last night. anyone's mind can change before exile.
carrie's going would be a big mistake. raphael, tenchi and i need to vote judith, and we all need to pull in the swing votes like jordan and matthew and arthur.
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Post by Jessica on May 18, 2007 15:09:40 GMT -5
It looks like I cant vote for carrie any more. Anneliese was trying to convince me to vote judy, and upon asking jack the reason, I was told about judy's cheating accusation at you, bebe, for the "first" time. Now I cant really vote carrie without looking completely stubborn. So it may be a landslide.
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Post by Jessica on May 18, 2007 15:11:19 GMT -5
But it may be a good thing. After judy is revealed as a cit, chaos will ensue when pretty much everyone had voted for her and people will need to divide. It should be fairly easy for us to make sure none of us are exiled when accusations are flying everywhere.
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Post by Tenchi on May 18, 2007 20:49:37 GMT -5
MISSION SUCCESS.
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Post by Jessica on May 18, 2007 20:56:04 GMT -5
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS........
NO TIME FOR JUDY CAUSE WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS... OF EXILE!!!
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 19, 2007 17:39:58 GMT -5
God, this almost makes me feel sick. Until I read this, I thought you were all playing me to get me to take Judith out. Now it looks like you guys seriously had no idea that I was targeting Judith the entire time? That I was doing everything I possibly could to encourage Tenchi and Jack - Tenchi, I even got Anneliese to stop you from switching to Jennipher when you told me you might! - and you guys seriously had no freaking idea?
I'm not sure what feels worse... making a colossal fuck-up like this (just how much of my fuck-up it was you'll see in episode four, when I pretty much lay the whole thing out in a VERY bitter confessional) because you're being "played" by someone you trust (Tenchi) or realising that he actually had no freaking idea and it actually was your mistake all along...
In fact... did anybody have any idea just how much I did this round to get Judith out without exposing myself? I pretty much lay it all out in that confessional in episode four, but right now it looks like nobody had a clue, when I thought I was being way too obvious at times.
My goal was to get Judith - the spy - out, but also have someone else - Carrie - targeted so that the spies had another "option" they could go for. Therefore exposing all the Carrie votors as likely spies. It's probably the best "manipulation" I've ever done in a Spies game. Anneliese was the only one who knew, and I convinced her to keep it secret, ostensibly because I wanted to protect my allies by dividing the votes (also true) but mostly because I knew Judy probably knew who I was and could get some counter-accusations going to get me out if she ever realised who was targeting her.
And all that time I was playing into the hands of the spies... It's bad enough when you think you've been "played" but then to learn that you really are responsible, that there wasn't any grand conspiracy, that it really was entirely your fuck-up...
Damn.
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Post by Claire on Jun 19, 2007 19:24:46 GMT -5
I was just letting you destroy yourself so it wouldn't reflect on me when you were exiled and shown to be a cit.
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Post by Bebe on Jun 19, 2007 20:44:38 GMT -5
LOL honestly, when Reicheru was like, "Getting Judith out was my master plan", I was like "What are you talking about?" the entire time. I didn't see any Reicheru influence on the exile at all. From my point of view, I was pushing Trina, Taylor, Carrie, and Shane to vote Judith, and letting Jessica, Anneliese and Jack take care of the rest.
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Post by Claire on Jun 19, 2007 21:15:31 GMT -5
yea i never heard anything about a rei push for judith
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 19, 2007 21:24:31 GMT -5
I never "pushed" for Judith. I tried to appear to be doing exactly the opposite - pushing for Carrie. When it looked like this was too successful, I started using "accusation votes" to make sure Tenchi and Jack's vote would succeed. I was convinced Judith was a spy.
Tenchi was - or claimed to be - voting for Jennipher, before I insisted on Judith. The night before exile he even said he was switching back to Jennipher - and I stopped him! All this time I thought Tenchi was "playing" me and knew about my targeting Judith all along. From his own confessionals and the Spies HQ, it doesn't look as though that's the case. Regardless, I must've been a Godsend to the spies that episode. I was encouraging everyone I met to join Tenchi and Jack.
If you remember, Judith was successfully accused four times: once in episode two (by me), three times in episode three (by - I think - Anneliese, Tenchi and Jack). As regards the three accusation votes, I was responsible for them because (as far as I knew at the time) I was the only one who knew who Judith was for certain. I told Anneliese to let Jack and Tenchi know who Judith was without letting them know the information came from me. When I twigged you were DC, it crossed my mind that you might have known too, but in the end I believe it was Anneliese Jack and Tenchi who actually accused Judith. Those were the three that I informed about who she was.
Read my full confessional in episode four, and the conversations this episode. I was throwing people at Tenchi and Jack and giving them every reason to vote Judith while trying to appear to "discourage" them. I thought some of them had to be spies alongside Judith, and the whole idea with the Carrie vote was to give the spies someone else - someone who couldn't be a spy along with Judith, since Judith had "masterminded" taking Carrie out the episode before - to vote for. That way, we could be fairly sure the majority of spies would vote Carrie, not Judith.
I explained a lot of this to Anneliese, but not the important part, which was that I couldn't afford to appear to NOT be on Judith's "side" this time or else she'd get accusation votes against me. I was pretty sure she knew who I was. So I couldn't let it be known that I was responsible.
I'm responsible for four votes single-handedly, with a possible fifth (Anneliese was definitely gunning for Jennipher before I persuaded her otherwise, and the accusation votes were obviously down to me too. I don't know if Tenchi would've stuck with Jennipher if I hadn't encouraged so many people to speak to him about Judith, so that one's doubtful. Again - I'm still not sure how much of this was Tenchi "playing" me, and how much was genuinely me working on my own, through Anneliese.) Judith had a majority of only eight votes, and I was single-handedly responsible for half of that. A lot of other people might have been considering voting for Judith, but I made sure to let them know that there was an alliance doing the same thing. This is a lot more than I ever did with others - for example, Gigi or Leo from Spies 1 and 2 respectively, or Jakub or Carrie from Spies 3.
It's the "boulder" metaphor. I started that boulder - Judith's vote - rolling down the hill soon after Tyler was exiled. I persuaded people who were thinking of voting Jennipher to vote Judith instead. Maybe not Tenchi, but certainly Anneliese and possibly Jack. And I threw everyone who was at all suspicious of Judith towards them to make sure they knew that there was a big alliance forming against Judith.
When you start a boulder rolling, it's bound to pick up a few loose rocks. Maybe those stray Judith votes would've gone the way they did, maybe not, it's hard to know. Maybe everyone would've voted Jennipher instead. The spies were just as in favour of taking her out, remember. Maybe there was another anti-Judith alliance in place, although I doubt it could've had the same effect as Anneliese, Jack, Tenchi and myself. (From what Bebe said, there was, but again I doubt it made any difference to the result except for a couple of extra votes that maybe would've slipped by Jack, Annie, Tenchi and me.)
In the end I don't think it matters. I was convinced Judith was a spy and did everything I possibly could to take her out without revealing myself in the process. I don't think she would've gone if it hadn't been for me, I think Jennipher would have been out. All I know is I created a HUGE alliance and encouraged people to join it. Enough did to get Judith out.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 19, 2007 21:32:10 GMT -5
And to put it into perspective - although I supported Jakub's exile, and suggested his name early on; although I supported Carrie's exile, because I thought it would tell us more than anyone else's; I don't count myself as "responsible" for those in the same way as I count myself "responsible" for Judith. Jakub barely got enough votes for a majority. Carrie was probably gone anyway.
If I hadn't pushed as hard as I did - through Anneliese - for Judith, Jenn would almost certainly have been exiled. There were LOTS of people considering voting her that exile. In Jakub's and Carrie's case there wasn't really a second person who would have been targeted if I hadn't interfered. The nearest it got was the Jakub-Jenn split vote, and that's doubtful.
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Post by Shane on Jun 19, 2007 22:30:03 GMT -5
My vote for Judith was cast in Episode Two. No one had any sway over that. I was certain then, in Episode Two, that she was a Spy. The only reason I didn't tell people my vote still stood for Judith in Episode Three, was because she now had me in her sights, and I didn't want her to hear that I may still be voting for her.
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 20, 2007 9:48:58 GMT -5
Nod with Shane. I read that somewhere.
Anyway, Rei as much as possible wanted her hands clean with the Exile of Judith. The reality of it all way Annie was the one who "convinced me to go for Judith". I just said, er... ok why not? I did suspect her after all (plus the bonus fact we saw Judith as a strong player back in Episode One and this would be the perfect time to get her out)
Rei NEVER talked to me in detail why I should talk to Judith. From my citizen POV it was not her fault. I was genuinely shocked when she claimed to be at fault of Judith's exile (which I thought was awesome because it was a big demoralization to see a fun character go).
Again, it was Anneliese who "convinced" me to rally against Judith. Actually, that episode, I only got to talk strategy with Rei a few hours before Exile. And AFAIK, she was defending Judith.
Also, I DID NOT ACCUSE ANYBODY SUCCESSFULLY IN THE GAME.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 20, 2007 11:42:57 GMT -5
No, the third accuser was Bebe. She told me last night. So count one less accusation vote up to me at any rate. I was - publicly at least - going after Carrie. I wanted to make sure that the spies had an alternative target, and I knew they couldn't both be spies because Judith had targeted Carrie. The plan was, the vote against Carrie would fail, Judith (the genuine spy) would be ousted by accusations if necessary, and we'd know that the majority of the spies would have voted Carrie. Afterwards I "confessed" to having engineered Judith's exile because I thought there was a good chance I'd be imprisoned. Imagine my horror when Anneliese brought out the double-whammy of her exposure of my "fake role" AND the builder's ability proving that one of us had lied! It looked like I'd be exiled for sure, when up until then I thought the only thing I had to worry about was imprisonment. If Judith had gone by landslide, like Leo had in Spies 2, it would tell us nothing about who her partners were. I had to give the spies an alternative. Carrie was just the most obvious person at the time, she was the one most people would consider a "likely" target. So I publicly appeared to be on Judith's side, setting up a counter-alliance that I knew would fail. If it looked to be too close I could (and did) use accusations to make sure it was Judy who got the boot. Anneliese, as stated, was all for going after Jennipher in the beginning. I changed her mind by PMing her immediately after Tyler's exile and saying that I was certain Judith was a spy. (I was.) When you told me the night before exile that you were going after Jenn instead, Tenchi, I immediately asked Anneliese to convince you to keep targeting Judith - check our convos. (She did it very well I thought.) Anneliese was acting for me the entire time because she believed me about Judith. Ugh... What I don't know is whether you were seriously considering Jenn, Tenchi, or whether your "wavering" was faked for Annie's benefit and you were always set on getting Judy out from the start?
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Post by Judith on Jun 20, 2007 14:44:57 GMT -5
I think, honestly dear, my exile was soley based on the Spies seeing me as the biggest threat in the game to them. They engineered it. You added fuel to their fire.
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Post by Bebe on Jun 20, 2007 16:16:23 GMT -5
I totally know what you're saying, Shane. That's why I prefaced my comment regarding trying to influence your vote with "from my point of view" - because at the time, just from my perspective, I felt like I helped influence your vote.
You have 26 - well, Imagine's not real, so 25 - players with their own idea of how events played out. I believed I helped influence Shane's vote, Shane believes his vote for Judith was entirely his own idea and that he helped influence other votes, Reicheru believes she was entirely and solely responsible for Judith's exile, and other players have their own view on how Judith's exile unfolded as well.
That's why it's so interesting to read the confessionals and conversations after the game - you see 24 other points of view on events and get different perspectives on how things REALLY played out.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 20, 2007 16:48:27 GMT -5
Not SOLELY, obviously. It takes a lot of people to exile someone. I certainly started the bandwagon for Judith, and the spies themselves said in this thread that they might have gone for Jennipher if it hadn't have been for that. Having read the conversations and confessionals, though, it still seems fairly certain that Jennipher would have gone this round if I hadn't stepped in.
The fact is, this whole game revolved around "bandwagons". Jenn, Miles, Carrie... it was all bandwagonning, and the spies were better at at than anyone else. The only time a bandwagon was started for a spy, they were able to completely deflect it away from Bebe and onto Miles instead. Every time someone else started a bandwagon, they were able to run with it without incurring much suspicion. I think probably that happened on most exiles, at least the ones where the spies didn't start the bandwagons themselves.
As for Shane's vote, he'd voted independently of the other players for the first two rounds. I don't think he tried to influence others' votes in the same way that I did. Maybe the spies saw him as a threat because of his independence; I guess we'll find out in the confessionals later in the game.
That brings up an interesting question.
Has anything you've seen after the game has ended really changed your perspective of what went on? I felt up until this point that I had a pretty clear handle on who was aligning with who, etc. So did many people, there didn't seem to be many secrets. (The newcomers changed all of that, of course.) When you think you know that much, and STILL have no idea who the spies really are, it's a huge knock to the confidence.
Honestly - the only real surprise I've had so far is that the spies considered Leena, Bruce and Audrey such big threats. I never even met Audrey, but the few people who mentioned her never really seemed to consider her a "player". Leena seemed honest and perceptive but not someone who could organise a vote or start a bandwagon. And as for Bruce, I was very suspicious of him all along but he seems like a Godsend to the spies now - a clueless citizen who everyone suspects. (Not that I'm singling out Bruce as particularly clueless, I don't think any of the citizens can be much commended in that respect, especially myself!)
Other than that, I really don't think there has been anything that has made me sit up and think "OMG, I really had no clue about that!" What does everyone else think?
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Post by Shane on Jun 20, 2007 17:19:08 GMT -5
I think what got me the boot was a couple things. My role got me in closer with Anneliese and Jack, which were people the Spies feared, and since I was able to save Anneliese once, and how I said my role may do more, they were probably afraid I'd get a chance to do something else to hurt them.
I also think I went because my suspicions were starting to near the heart of the Spies. I had Tenchi and Jessica on my lists for the most part, and it was around Imprisonment Four where I started to suspect Bebe more. Maybe they caught wind of it, and had to get me out before Anneliese. I thought I was good for another round after I saved her, as I thought they'd go for her again. Sucks they got me, because had I stayed, I would've went after Jack or Jessica/Tenchi. Jack because he spilled my role, but once I spoke to him in the LL I realized it was a mistake, and I'm sure I would've believed him in the game as well.
Tenchi and Jessica because I didn't buy the whole "the Bunker thing was just a mistake on Anne" story.
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Post by Arthur on Jun 20, 2007 17:25:11 GMT -5
No, Rei. You were right. Bruce was a clueless Citizen, the kind of person the Spies were foaming at the mouth to have in the game. Also, Anne is a dumb cunt.
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Post by Judge Sam on Jun 20, 2007 17:45:03 GMT -5
stones, glass houses, etc.
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Post by Shane on Jun 20, 2007 18:38:49 GMT -5
Pot. Kettle.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 20, 2007 19:02:55 GMT -5
No, Rei. You were right. Bruce was a clueless Citizen, the kind of person the Spies were foaming at the mouth to have in the game. Also, Anne is a dumb cunt. Eerk... that wasn't QUITE what I meant...
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Post by Bruce on Jun 20, 2007 19:13:32 GMT -5
No, Rei. You were right. Bruce was a clueless Citizen, the kind of person the Spies were foaming at the mouth to have in the game. Also, Anne is a dumb cunt. Says the idiot who so adamantly defended two spies very late in the game saying that they were both citizens.
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Post by Shane on Jun 20, 2007 19:59:12 GMT -5
The same idiot who listed four names in the Burg as his suspicions, yet failed to provide any reasoning, and then, when one of those names was on the block for Exile, he throws his vote away, and yells at everyone when said person turns out to be a Citizen. Like he didn't just say her name in the Burg like an hour prior...
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