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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 21:02:54 GMT -5
I'm taking a huge risk by saying this, but we're down a bunch of Citizens and have yet to nail shut a Spy's coffin. If you suspect me, I don't give a flying crap. Read this without bias. Hear what I have to say, because I have a point. Yes, I do.
First, I'm going to apologize to the victim of this speech ahead of time. I don't know that you're a Spy, but this has to be done because it will ensure the most information is gained from this Exile.
I have, without any level of doubt, confirmed 3 other Citizens. One of them, Jordan, you all know of. This was the result of Trina's exile. I don't need to explain any further. I will not name the other two for their own safety, but they know who they are. There was yet another. Her name was Anneliese. Unfortunately, she is no longer with us.
With these three other Citizens, I have narrowed down my unconfirmed list to 10 players. I do not ever remove a name from there unless I am 100% certain that they are a Citizens.
Now, we know we have 5 Spies. That gives ME a 50% shot at hitting a Spy. Unfortunately, the problem now lies with gathering support. I cannot say with any certainty that one person is a Spy. However, I like the statistics behind knowing that half the people on my suspect list is a Spy. So I will pick the person who I believe will give off the most information regardless of the result of the exile, while still hoping that they do indeed wind up being a Spy.
This person happens to be none other than Bebe. We saw that she was the one who used the investigation. Moreover, she has claimed to have gotten a Citizen as a result. But what good does this do to anyone who is unsure of her alignment? I know I am not the only one who has had suspicion for Bebe in the past, but any level of suspicion is enough for me to be dissatisfied with such a claim. It would be different with a Spy result, simply because it would be foolish for either a Spy or Citizen to lie about such a result. That investigated player, in that scenario, would be a Spy without a doubt. However, there is a large level of uncertainty that I feel with the claim that Jessica is a Citizen, and people who will blindly follow it are doomed to fall for such a trap in the future.
So what do I propose? Sadly, to exile Bebe. Yes, this is an extremely bold move on my part, because I will be a top priority target next episode if Bebe winds up being a Citizen. However, I offer you two scenarios that may come about from this :
1) Bebe is Exiled and winds up being a Citizen.
Downside - We lose a Citizen. However, from my perspective, there is a 50% shot of that in any event. I am sure it is an even worse shot for those of you who have no idea who is who. So this is a rather STANDARD downside that will come about regardless of what Citizen may wind up being Exiled.
Upside - We gain the 100% certainty that Jessica is a Citizen. Bebe, as a Citizen, would have no reason whatsoever to lie about Jessica's alignment. For me, this cuts the suspect list down to eight, one confirmed being Jessica, and one being Bebe, providing 63% shot of hitting a Spy in the next Episode.
2) Bebe is Exiled and winds up being a Spy.
Downside - We don't know whether or not Jessica is a Spy or a Citizen. If Bebe is a Spy, she may have "investigated" Jessica and called her a Citizen, even though she WAS a Citizen, in hopes that we target her for Exile this episode. If that were the case, Bebe would wind up looking much more innocent because she was truthful in her "investigation". The other scenario is that Jessica really is a Spy and Bebe called her a Citizen falsely, for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, there is no way for us to tell which scenario Bebe chose, because there are advantages for her in either case.
Upside - We get rid of one of the Spies! Need I say more?
I simply ask that you all follow me on this one. I will nearly certainly be gone next Episode. If Bebe winds up being a Spy, I will almost certainly be targeted for Imprisonment next episode because I am catching on to a lot of things. If she's a Citizen, I won't be surprised if I am exiled in Episode seven.
Regardless, for now, you all need to ask yourselves why I would put myself out there to do this. Why would I do this as a Spy? To get one more Citizen rid of? There are no bandwagons forming just yet, so why would I do this instead of just going with the flow as the Spies have obviously been doing for the past five episodes? Ask yourself this, then rethink what other alternatives we have. We will gain something from exiling Bebe regardless of what the outcome is.
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Post by Arthur on Jun 2, 2007 21:41:16 GMT -5
I will not vote Bebe out. My vote is going to Jack or Miles, and I urge other people to do so as well. Bebe, I'm sorry for revealing our conversation, but people were already mentioning your name before I talked about it. I hope this doesn't break your trust in me.
Basically, Bebe barely, and I mean BARELY, told me this. At the challenge, she/Miles/Bruce agreed to keep the decision between themselves, and to tell Jordan the results of the investigation, so he would state it publicly. Well, somehow Jack found out, and my guess was from Miles, as I suspected them both. Sure enough, Jack admitted that Miles did indeed tell him. I talked to Jack about it on AIM, and confirmed it, and said that he didn't push hard for anything, but Bebe said that Miles said that Jack was SURE that they should go after Jessica (their initial target was Brooks). Basically, Bebe believes that Brooks and Jack are Spies together, and it makes sense that Miles would be one as well.
We go through this each round. Somebody urges everyone to go against one target. They try and throw suspicions off themselves by saying things like "Regardless, for now, you all need to ask yourselves why I would put myself out there to do this. Why would I do this as a Spy?" or "I will nearly certainly be gone next Episode". So I don't put much stock into that.
Bebe begged me not to tell anyone for fear that Jack would find out and rally votes, since he is so well liked (her words). Sure enough, he's coming up with a plan. Reicheru supports him 100 percent and will not vote him, but I'm still up in the air with regards to her being a spy. Even if Jack goes and he's a spy, I would still not be sure if Reicheru was one or not.
I guess I would even be willing to vote Brooks out, but he doesn't seem as threatening as the other two. But whatever you do, DO NOT vote Bebe. She hesistated once before she started to tell me, and then as she was talking, nearly stopped a second time.
One other thing is that Jack did not work with Tenchi during the challenge. Would you care to state why, Jack?
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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 21:51:46 GMT -5
Basically, Bebe barely, and I mean BARELY, told me this. At the challenge, she/Miles/Bruce agreed to keep the decision between themselves, and to tell Jordan the results of the investigation, so he would state it publicly. Well, somehow Jack found out, and my guess was from Miles, as I suspected them both. Sure enough, Jack admitted that Miles did indeed tell him. Yes, Miles told me. How does that have anything to do with him being a Spy? If you all had planned on telling everyone eventually, then what would be the harm in his telling me anyways? You should have simply come out and said it. I talked to Jack about it on AIM, and confirmed it, and said that he didn't push hard for anything, but Bebe said that Miles said that Jack was SURE that they should go after Jessica (their initial target was Brooks). I did not push hard. I made a suggestion and Miles passed it on to the group. If you consider my suggestion a hard push, then that's your own flawed interpretation of the situation. Basically, Bebe believes that Brooks and Jack are Spies together, and it makes sense that Miles would be one as well. "Bebe believes. Bebe believes. Bebe believes." Give everyone one good reason to believe anything Bebe believes. Did I miss something, or did she do something extraordinary that we all should know about? We go through this each round. Somebody urges everyone to go against one target. They try and throw suspicions off themselves by saying things like "Regardless, for now, you all need to ask yourselves why I would put myself out there to do this. Why would I do this as a Spy?" or "I will nearly certainly be gone next Episode". So I don't put much stock into that. Who's the notorious one for doing that in the past. Let's see... Anneliese... Who wound up being a Citizen? Let's see... Anneliese... Being wrong does not make you a Spy. Bebe begged me not to tell anyone for fear that Jack would find out and rally votes, since he is so well liked (her words). Sure enough, he's coming up with a plan. Reicheru supports him 100 percent and will not vote him, but I'm still up in the air with regards to her being a spy. Even if Jack goes and he's a spy, I would still not be sure if Reicheru was one or not. I wonder why she's so scared? I guess I would even be willing to vote Brooks out, but he doesn't seem as threatening as the other two. But whatever you do, DO NOT vote Bebe. She hesistated once before she started to tell me, and then as she was talking, nearly stopped a second time. Again, why is she so scared? Again, why are you protecting Bebe? What has she done that has convinced you that she is not a Spy? I can list a reason for supporting every person that I have on my confirmed list, yet I have yet to see any solid reasoning from you, Arthur. One other thing is that Jack did not work with Tenchi during the challenge. Would you care to state why, Jack? How did I not work with him?
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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 21:56:03 GMT -5
Anyways, all those points aside, you have completely missed every point I have made.
I want you, Arthur, to respond to the pros and cons I have listed that will come about from exiling Bebe. That is all I care about. The ends justifies the means, and by exiling Bebe, you will have more information that exiling anyone else. There's still the same probability that she will be a Spy, but regardless of her role, you will either have a certainty of Jessica's alignment to base the next episode's vote on, or you will have yourself a Spy exiled.
If you cannot refute that, then you have no reason to disallow this from happening. If you have no reason for disallowing this from happening, then I will wonder why you are so eagerly defending Bebe when you have offered no logical explanation for doing so.
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 2, 2007 22:01:20 GMT -5
To confirm the challenge: I gave my piece information at the start. You claimed to have two pieces: one given by the gift giver. It took you SO LONG to give me the first piece and the hint with it. Then you never gave me the second piece. Brooks was busy with creating a fake piece, while you were so busy on solving the puzzle on my own. With two pieces and one hint. Again, the way you treated me at the challenge just gives me more reason to suspect you, but not as evidence. Who's the notorious one for doing that in the past. Let's see... Anneliese... Who wound up being a Citizen? Let's see... Anneliese... Being wrong does not make you a Spy. Note this: From my observation, we have a forgiving Burg. If you come up with some dirty lie and come clean, people don't really go after you. We had Reicheru, Trina, Arthur and Anneliese lying and coming clean and was one of them Exiled because of a lie? No. I could just be me but a skilled spy can be confident enough "coming clean" without any prosecution.
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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 22:06:00 GMT -5
To confirm the challenge: I gave my piece information at the start. You claimed to have two pieces: one given by the gift giver. It took you SO LONG to give me the first piece and the hint with it. Then you never gave me the second piece. Brooks was busy with creating a fake piece, while you were so busy on solving the puzzle on my own. With two pieces and one hint. Again, the way you treated me at the challenge just gives me more reason to suspect you, but not as evidence. Don't give me that bull. I had to deal with two pieces and your own, and I did wind up giving you a piece. However, you said later that you didn't want the second piece. So don't cry me a river when you're simply taking back your own words. If you wanted to work with it so badly, then you should have asked again. Brooks never gave me his piece, and you don't see me throwing a hissy fit over it. Note this: From my observation, we have a forgiving Burg. If you come up with some dirty lie and come clean, people don't really go after you. We had Reicheru, Trina, Arthur and Anneliese lying and coming clean and was one of them Exiled because of a lie? No. I could just be me but a skilled spy can be confident enough "coming clean" without any prosecution. So what, then? Arthur is trying to claim that because of the mistakes of the past, we are repeating history. However, he's using that to fuel his little campaign against me, when in reality, Anneliese did it herself and was all along a Citizen. Therefore, his point has no meaning.
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Post by Jessica on Jun 2, 2007 22:12:31 GMT -5
The pros and cons list Jack made is very convincing, but so are the arguments Arthur is making.
If Jack knew he was on the block (as I heard quite a few people mentioning jack's name as a prime suspect) he would very likely have wanted to put off his exile on more episode, which is what this thread seems to be attempting.
I suspected both Jack and Bebe prior to this episode, so this vote will be very tough for me to decide on, but for the moment I am leaning towards voting jack. But it is just leaning, it is in no way set in stone.
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Post by Arthur on Jun 2, 2007 22:15:11 GMT -5
1 - Bebe is Exiled and winds up being a Citizen
"Downside - We lose a Citizen. However, from my perspective, there is a 50% shot of that in any event. I am sure it is an even worse shot for those of you who have no idea who is who. So this is a rather STANDARD downside that will come about regardless of what Citizen may wind up being Exiled."
Agreed. Pretty much any choice is 50/50. Which means that Exiling you is just as good as exiling Bebe. It seems like your whole basis for voting Bebe is quite frankly, a half-ass attempt and no clever wording or detailed post can change that.
"Upside - We gain the 100% certainty that Jessica is a Citizen. Bebe, as a Citizen, would have no reason whatsoever to lie about Jessica's alignment. For me, this cuts the suspect list down to eight, one confirmed being Jessica, and one being Bebe, providing 63% shot of hitting a Spy in the next Episode."
Blah, blah, blah. Who are your confirmed Citizens again? Why should we believe they are confirmed? How about this. Bebe was talked into investigating Jessica, and not Brooks, as you requested. She said Jessica is a citizen, and I happen to believe them both. The upside we get from booting you if you are a citizen is the clearing of Miles, Brooks, and Reicheru.
2) Bebe is Exiled and winds up being a Spy.
"Downside - We don't know whether or not Jessica is a Spy or a Citizen. If Bebe is a Spy, she may have "investigated" Jessica and called her a Citizen, even though she WAS a Citizen, in hopes that we target her for Exile this episode. If that were the case, Bebe would wind up looking much more innocent because she was truthful in her "investigation". The other scenario is that Jessica really is a Spy and Bebe called her a Citizen falsely, for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, there is no way for us to tell which scenario Bebe chose, because there are advantages for her in either case."
This whole scenario is a waste as neither Bebe or Jessica are Spies. Now, getting rid of you and you end up being a Spy has no downside for us at all. "Upside - We get rid of one of the Spies! Need I say more?"
True. And getting rid of you means we have two more lined up.
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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 22:16:34 GMT -5
If Jack knew he was on the block (as I heard quite a few people mentioning jack's name as a prime suspect) he would very likely have wanted to put off his exile on more episode, which is what this thread seems to be attempting. I don't think I was on the block this episode. I think that both Trina's exile and Anneliese's imprisonment gave me some of my credibility back. However, again, there is no point in me doing this just to postpone my own demise one more episode. What's the point?
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 2, 2007 22:17:55 GMT -5
To confirm the challenge: I gave my piece information at the start. You claimed to have two pieces: one given by the gift giver. It took you SO LONG to give me the first piece and the hint with it. Then you never gave me the second piece. Brooks was busy with creating a fake piece, while you were so busy on solving the puzzle on my own. With two pieces and one hint. Again, the way you treated me at the challenge just gives me more reason to suspect you, but not as evidence. Don't give me that bull. I had to deal with two pieces and your own, and I did wind up giving you a piece. However, you said later that you didn't want the second piece. So don't cry me a river when you're simply taking back your own words. If you wanted to work with it so badly, then you should have asked again. Brooks never gave me his piece, and you don't see me throwing a hissy fit over it. Whoo~~~~ No need to be touchy over it. I'm just confirming my POV. Yes, I didn't want it. Why? Because you didn't want to give it away when I first asked for it. I didn't even bother solving too much anyway, since everybody was doing their own thing. There was NO teamwork at that group. A happy fact though, Bruce was the only one who ever considered a fair trade in that game from my view.
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Post by Jessica on Jun 2, 2007 22:26:41 GMT -5
If Jack knew he was on the block (as I heard quite a few people mentioning jack's name as a prime suspect) he would very likely have wanted to put off his exile on more episode, which is what this thread seems to be attempting. I don't think I was on the block this episode. I think that both Trina's exile and Anneliese's imprisonment gave me some of my credibility back. However, again, there is no point in me doing this just to postpone my own demise one more episode. What's the point? Wow, you've gotta be kidding me. What's the point? A spy would obviously want one more citizen out before being exiled and lining up other spies to go. It would mean one less citizen around to have to sway.
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 2, 2007 22:27:25 GMT -5
If Jack knew he was on the block (as I heard quite a few people mentioning jack's name as a prime suspect) he would very likely have wanted to put off his exile on more episode, which is what this thread seems to be attempting. I don't think I was on the block this episode. I think that both Trina's exile and Anneliese's imprisonment gave me some of my credibility back. However, again, there is no point in me doing this just to postpone my own demise one more episode. What's the point? Why? Reality check fellow Citizens! Three more exiles without a Spy will cause hell to blow up on our faces. Any stalling to NOT get a spy out will be favorable for them.
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Post by Jack on Jun 2, 2007 22:27:55 GMT -5
Agreed. Pretty much any choice is 50/50. Which means that Exiling you is just as good as exiling Bebe. Give a reason for it. I gave a reason for why exiling Bebe would be a better alternative than anyone else. What is your reason for thinking that exiling me is better? My reason: We either exile a spy, or we confirm Jessica Your reason: None stated It seems like your whole basis for voting Bebe is quite frankly, a half-ass attempt and no clever wording or detailed post can change that. Horrible rebuttal. If you still can't see my reason, then you need to take reading comprehension classes. I'll write it again just in case you didn't understand it: THERE ARE TWO SCENARIOS1) Bebe is a Spy. This is automatically a good thing 2) Bebe is a Citizen. We confirm that Jessica is a Citizen. If we exile anyone else, we will NOT gain that information.Blah, blah, blah. Who are your confirmed Citizens again? Why should we believe they are confirmed? It doesn't matter. Regardless of who you are, another confirmed Citizen is in your benefit. If you, Arthur, have two confirmed Innocents, then adding Jessica to the list is in your benefit. I gave MY perspective as an example, and if you can't use confirmation to your advantage, then shame on you. How about this. Bebe was talked into investigating Jessica, and not Brooks, as you requested. She said Jessica is a citizen, and I happen to believe them both. The upside we get from booting you if you are a citizen is the clearing of Miles, Brooks, and Reicheru. 1) Exiling me does not clear Miles. I can see reasons for both the Spy Miles and Citizen Miles telling me the results of that Challenge. What are they? None. There is no gain nor loss for his doing that, because those results would have been known eventually anyways. 2) I can't even fathom how exiling me would clear Brooks. What the hell kind of relations do I have with him? 3) Again, how does this clear Reicheru? The only way I'm linked to her in a confirm-able way is with Anneliese's Builder ability. You are not understanding the meaning of "Clearing" -- Clearing someone is to state that they are a Citizen beyond all doubt. An example: Jordan. We cannot ever say he is a Spy, because there is no way this is possible. You will get the same if Bebe is a Citizen. If you can prove how you will get the same from any of those three by exiling me, then I give you some major props. 2) Bebe is Exiled and winds up being a Spy. This whole scenario is a waste as neither Bebe or Jessica are Spies. Now, getting rid of you and you end up being a Spy has no downside for us at all. What the hell are you talking about? This scenario depends on Bebe's being a Spy. It's the only alternative to the one I just discussed before this. "Upside - We get rid of one of the Spies! Need I say more?" True. And getting rid of you means we have two more lined up. Ironically, you've still yet to point out anything incriminating against me.
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Post by Bebe on Jun 3, 2007 0:47:54 GMT -5
right now my head is spinning but i think that the most important thing jack said was this:
"I simply ask that you all follow me on this one ... If [bebe's] a Citizen, I won't be surprised if I am exiled in Episode seven."
the spies need 3 more exiles to win:
exile 1: exile me - everyone will find out i'm a citizen exile 2: jack gets exiled for framing me - one more citizen down exile 3: spies themselves have 5 votes, they pull over 1 citizen and win 6-4
game over.
spies win.
we don't have any time to test theories this round. we can't follow anyone this round. we need a spy out. if we get a citizen out, that's it. the game is over and the spies win. and that's why exiling me this round would be a huge mistake. a game ending mistake.
it's superlate and there's a lot i need to say in im, so i will talk to everyone tomorrow.
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Post by Taylor on Jun 3, 2007 10:23:12 GMT -5
i'll wait for the backlash, but i think that jack's arguments make more sense than the others... he has a good point. it goes along the same lines as what i was thinking last time, though i was clearly wrong and we lost a great citizen.... when i wanted to vote for anneleise, it would've proven trina either as spy or citizen (and by the way both were good suspects since they were all over the place with lies and causing distractions and just being downright stupid - no offense to either when its all said and done though... they've done more than many...). Basically, I don't know what to say in response but Jack's argument is more clear. i've said this many times, and if i had the 'evidence' or same ideas about anyone i would post the same things, i would rather go down as a citizen trying to get spies out than just twiddle my thumbs. though im probably also in serious danger at next imprisonment. it is what it is, we gotta get a spy out. i suggest you all go rub the troll doll's hair and get some good luck and lets DO THIS this time. b/c as devestating as its been the last oh.. countless times... way worse now...
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Post by Arthur on Jun 3, 2007 11:07:51 GMT -5
For the record, here is the important part of my conversation with Bebe. Maybe she can confirm whether Jack made a casual suggestion like he claimed about changing from Brooks to Jessica:
spies3Bebe: my team won in the end spies3Bebe: so bruce miles and i had to compete against each other spies3Bebe: and we agreed it would be fair to all agree on 1 person to investigate and have someone ask sam spies3Bebe: so we picked spies3Bebe: and we said "ok no one is going to tell anyone" spies3Bebe: "it's a secret between us 3, and we will have jordan say who won" spies3Bebe: so someone posted the name in their confessional spies3Bebe: no spies3Bebe: so one of us tells jack spies3Bebe: it wasn't me spies3Bebe: someone ran to jack spies3Bebe: miles or bruce spies3Bebe: and miles tells me "so jack is 100% positive that tenchi or jessica is a spy, we should look up one of those 2" spies3Bebe: you with me so far spies3Arthur: Yes spies3Bebe: we did not decide on the name tenchi or jessica spies3Bebe: we had picked someone else spies3Bebe: and that name made jack panic spies3Bebe: so we looked up jessica spies3Bebe: sure if jack's 100% positive why not look her up spies3Bebe: remember tho spies3Bebe: during the challenge jack refused to work with tenchi spies3Bebe: sam said jessica was a citizen spies3Bebe: jack gave us 1 citizen's name spies3Bebe: he also doesn't trust tenchi spies3Bebe: i think tenchi is also a citizen spies3Bebe: here is why spies3Bebe: #2 - we were going to investigate brooks spies3Bebe: jack found out spies3Bebe: jack made us switch spies3Bebe: i think jack did it to protect brooks spies3Bebe: cuz i think the 2 are spies together spies3Bebe: if we had investigated brooks, it would've been game over for brooks and jack spies3Bebe: so yes that is who i suspect spies3Arthur: Why didn't you? spies3Bebe: cuz miles said jack was SO SURE spies3Arthur: Miles said that? spies3Arthur: So maybe that's 3 spies spies3Bebe: if miles told jack who we were investigating, maybe spies3Bebe: jack found out SOMEHOW spies3Bebe: we ALL agreed NOT to tell ANYONE spies3Bebe: but jack found out in like 3 minutes spies3Arthur: It was Miles or Bruce, right? spies3Bebe: yep spies3Bebe: i didn't say a word to jack spies3Arthur: Miles spies3Bebe: miles was the last to agree on brooks spies3Bebe: but arthur spies3Bebe: you promised not to tell anyone spies3Arthur: I'm telling it to everyone spies3Bebe: no! spies3Arthur: Just kidding spies3Bebe: spies3Bebe: you know how many people trust jack spies3Bebe: if jack finds out spies3Bebe: he will have a lot of time to clear his name spies3Bebe: and to convince us to vote out tenchi or bruce or something spies3Arthur: What's he gonna do? Tenchi is positive that he's a spy, which is why Jack "suspects" Tenchi spies3Bebe: oh geez spies3Arthur: And which is probably why Tenchi and I headed the Spies list spies3Bebe: lots of people trust jack spies3Bebe: they listen to him spies3Bebe: i don't want to give jack 3 days to convince people not to vote fo rhim
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Post by Claire on Jun 3, 2007 11:47:57 GMT -5
This was my favorite part of the convo. But this is a good point as well as what Jack has been saying. I'll have to think. Bebe when will you be on AIM I really want to you.
spies3Arthur: I'm telling it to everyone spies3Bebe: no! spies3Arthur: Just kidding
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Post by Jack on Jun 3, 2007 11:51:26 GMT -5
I thought I made this blazingly clear for you, Arthur, but apparently not:
I hadn't spoken with Bebe at all until last night since the investigation occurred. I spoke with Bruce, however, this was after Miles had told me about the investigation. No-one ever told me it was "top secret" intelligence, and in any case, I don't give a flying crap if it was, because everyone had a right to know what the results were and who they came from. Perhaps you have some hidden reason for wanting it kept secret. If so, go ahead and tell me what that reason is.
Now, when it came down to my suggesting Jessica, I spoke with Miles, and he passed the message on to Bebe. However, who's decision was it in the end? Ultimately, it was Bebe's decision. Bebe brought the change in plans up to Bruce, who was supportive of the motion. Were I desperate, begging, and pleading, it was ultimately HER decision, and I could not change that had all three of them not agreed to it. She could have gone for Brooks, and that would have been fine by me. However, I have my reasons for wanting to clear Jessica's name, and so I brought up the possibility. The fact that you are trying to hold this against me as some sort of clever crime is pretty pitiful. You seem to believe I actually had the power to force Bebe to alter her plans, when in fact, I didn't. She was the decider. Let me say that again. Bebe was the decider.
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Post by Bebe on Jun 3, 2007 11:58:07 GMT -5
how do you know who "won" the challenge? none of us were supposed to tell anyone except jordan and i didn't tell anyone. the reason we didn't want to tell anyone was cuz we didn't want any of us to be a bigger target for imprisonment. and now thanks to this thread everyone knows it was me. thanks a lot.
yes in the end i was the one who posted the name but i play fair. miles and bruce and i agreed that i would not post a name unless we all 100% agreed. if i had posted someone else's name who we did not agree on, i would have broken our deal. we were just so eager to get a spy that when miles said "jack is 100% sure it's jessica or tenchi" i was like "oh ok well then it would be stupid not to change to jessica or tenchi".
so here's a great example of the difference between force and manipulation.
was i forced to change to jessica? no.
was i manipulated? maybe.
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Post by Claire on Jun 3, 2007 12:04:00 GMT -5
there is a big difference between doing what she wanted to and what was best for the group. why are you getting so defensive jack? they made a deal it's very crappy to break a deal spy and citz alike. so regardless i don't think the matter of who investigated who should matter. It was a 3 person decision not just Bebe's she's just the one that they trusted to ask sam. but yes it matter who was investigated. it just doesn't matter that bebe was the one that had to ask...unless she's lying about jessica, which can't be proven unless one of the two is exiled
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Post by Jack on Jun 3, 2007 12:25:03 GMT -5
how do you know who "won" the challenge? none of us were supposed to tell anyone except jordan and i didn't tell anyone. I was told by Miles that you would be using the investigation. I was not told that it was not suppose to be spoken. Perhaps given the explanation that Jordan would be the spokesperson, I would have allowed him to say it. However, I still believe everyone had the right to know who actually used the investigative ability. the reason we didn't want to tell anyone was cuz we didn't want any of us to be a bigger target for imprisonment. and now thanks to this thread everyone knows it was me. thanks a lot. Actually, I don't think it makes you a larger target. Look at the exile threat hovering over your head. Why would they want to imprison you if you could very well be exiled? That's the thing. No-one knows if you're a Spy, so no-one knows if they should believe the result. Why go for someone that everyone is unsure of when Jordan is still around, as confirmed as ever? I don't recall saying I was 100% sure that Jessica was a Spy. I do recall saying I was pretty certain she was. I'm not sure I really change my mind based on those results. was i forced to change to jessica? no. was i manipulated? maybe. You were given a suggestion. If you didn't like the idea, you could have stuck with Brooks. there is a big difference between doing what she wanted to and what was best for the group. why are you getting so defensive jack? Yeah, and if she thought that Jessica wasn't good for the group, then she didn't have to do it. So by saying she did think it was good for the group, I fail to see how you can single me out simply because I brought up the idea. I'm not getting defensive. I'm setting the record straight. they made a deal it's very crappy to break a deal spy and citz alike. so regardless i don't think the matter of who investigated who should matter. It was a 3 person decision not just Bebe's she's just the one that they trusted to ask sam. The reason we should know who did the investigating is NOT based on who was decided upon. It's because that person is the only one who can "see" and "reveal" the results. Without knowing the source of the investigation, how are we to determine whether the results were legit or not? That's my point. I struggle to blindly follow an investigation when no-one gives me any good reason to trust the source of that information. it just doesn't matter that bebe was the one that had to ask...unless she's lying about jessica, which can't be proven unless one of the two is exiled That's the point?
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 3, 2007 12:26:22 GMT -5
I think that is Jack's point. Where we disagree is I don't think exiling either Bebe or Jessica will prove anything about the other one either way (unless Jessica is spy, of course. And since she could be exiled or investigated at any time, I think that is a risk Bebe would not take if they are both spies.)
That said, I am not going to exile Jack either, so if anyone has third option, I am open to suggestions.
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Post by Jack on Jun 3, 2007 12:31:23 GMT -5
Reicheru : If Bebe turns up a Citizen, that DOES reveal Jessica's role. Why would Bebe as a CITIZEN lie about Jessica's alignment? That makes no sense.
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Post by Arthur on Jun 3, 2007 12:44:56 GMT -5
It would also be nice if cheese dicks like Raphael or Matthew actually gave their opinions on something for once. You guys are fucking worthless.
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Post by Claire on Jun 3, 2007 12:48:17 GMT -5
How are you so sure that that Bebe is a spy BEFORE the investigation mess?
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Post by Matthew on Jun 3, 2007 12:51:01 GMT -5
Arthur, fauck you. I give my opinion, i just give it to those i can trust instead of everyone seeing what im up to
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Post by Arthur on Jun 3, 2007 12:53:40 GMT -5
Why would you be worried about that? If you are a Citizen, the other Spies wouldn't target you anyways. You're a fucking clown.
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Post by Jack on Jun 3, 2007 13:02:07 GMT -5
How are you so sure that that Bebe is a spy BEFORE the investigation mess? Whoever said I was sure Bebe was a Spy? I said I was unsure. Being unsure is all that matters, because as long as there's a chance, I have no reason to trust the results.
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Post by Bruce on Jun 3, 2007 13:09:04 GMT -5
I'm usually not one to involve myself in these huge, overblown threads, which often turn out to be a twisted mess of confusion in which the spies are able to feast on our uncertainty as ravenous wolves feast upon a helpless deer, but it is late in the game; time is rapidly wasting away and we have to DO something or we are going to lose. From what I am seeing both in this particular thread and from what I've seen and experienced around the Burg is interesting; Jack has consistently been very open and analytical of potential spy situations throughout the entire game. Now, as most of you know, Jack was atop of my spy list for quite some time, and it wasn't until mere minutes before the last exile that my mind changed. I won't go in to the exact details as to why my mind was changed; you'll have to trust me to a degree as to why that is, but Anneliese certainly trusted Jack throughout the entire game, and she lasted a long time. I can't imagine the current scenario playing out under the conditions of Jack being a spy, it isn't logical, and there is no reasonable way of explaining such a thing, which is why I choose to operate under the assumption that Jack is a citizen. If Jack is a citizen, which we are assuming now, where does that leave us? It leaves us with an accusation that he has made, backed up by a logical and reasonable explanation. This is where I implore you, my fellow citizens, to listen closely! This game is ours for the taking, but if we want it, we have to FIGHT for it! This is not an individual game, it is a game of teams. If we can't work as a team, we WILL lose. The way I see it, it doesn't matter if you're imprisoned anymore, if it means that the Citizens win, then it's a justifiable sacrifice. Well, it just might be that we have to make a sacrifice tonight. I like you, Bebe, you are truly a pleasure to talk to and if you ARE a citizen, then you are an asset to the Burg. But I hope that you can understand that you MUST go tonight, for you now hold the key to the entire game. You are linked to four other people in a tangled web that we just might find out is the web of spies. It is time for we, the insect citizens of the Burg to rise against the lurking spiders who snatch up our comrades during the night and end this conflict. If we are wrong, and you are one of us, I hope that you understand and accept that your exiling is a cold fact of life. In the late 1700's, men banded together and formed the United States of America under the assumption that they deserved to be FREE, that they would NOT accept the British tyranny over them. Well, many men DIED fighting for the rights to this great country today that so many of us live in and enjoy. Those men died knowing that they were being sacrificed for the good of everyone else. It is sad that they had to die, but that's just it; they HAD to die in order to create what we have today. Arthur has adamantly defended Bebe and Jessica both here today. Are they all spies? Not necessarily, but it is SUSPICIOUS, and it's one of the VERY few leads we have now that could actually go somewhere. Ask yourselves this, how can Arthur, in his own words, say ? He made an ABSOLUTE statement, that Bebe and Jessica are NOT spies. How can he know that? He doesn't! He's either a foolish, duped citizen, or one of them - a spy - and I do not get the impression that Arthur is at all foolish, so that leaves us with one logical assumption that he could very well be a spy, if Bebe and Jessica turn out to be so, as well. But it doesn't end there, oh no, there's more! Arthur, who is trying to arrange the exiling of Jack, so subtly planted a thought into all of your minds, which, if allowed to come into fruition, would certainly buy the spies enough time to put this game away. I believe he said something along the lines of Miles and Brooks being "cleared" if Jack was exiled and turned out to be a citizen. ...Does that make any sense whatsoever? Aside from Miles telling Jack about the results of his, mine, and Bebe's group decision regarding the investigation of Jessica, he has had very little suspicious linkage to Jack. Brooks? Why would he be cleared if Jack were exiled as a citizen? That makes absolutely no sense. Again, we come to the question; is Arthur a very foolish citizen or a very devious spy? There you have FIVE people, linked precariously together by subtle yet VERY suspicious circumstances. I ask you, citizens of the Burg, can any of YOU give five people who are as dubiously linked together as these five? Can any of YOU tell me how exiling Jack, or ANYONE else for that matter, could potentially lead to the immediate capture of ALL of the remaining spies? I beseech you all, if you have ANY desire to win this game, then you MUST exile Bebe, not because you want to, but because you HAVE to! If you are not willing to do what must be done, then we all deserve to lose, which is precisely what we're on the verge of doing. If Bebe is a citizen, we confirm another citizen, bringing us that much closer to narrowing down the list of possible spies. If Bebe is a spy, we potentially have ALL FIVE spies locked in for exiling. The risk of voting out Bebe the citizen PALES in comparison to the simply AMAZING and game-changing rewards in voting out Bebe the spy, if you can't see this, then you truly are a lost cause. So ask yourselves this, tonight before voting. Do you WANT to win? Do you WANT to keep the citizens' streak of winning going? Or do you want to fail? Do you want to be the first group of citizens to LOSE in this series? I for one REFUSE to lose, and I will fight until my last days here to WIN. If that means a tough decision at Exile, then so be it. I choose to exile Bebe tonight because it simply HAS to be done. I hope that you will all choose to do the same.
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Post by Raphael on Jun 3, 2007 13:12:21 GMT -5
Wow, so much has happend in this thread that I do not know where to begin. So please, IM me to help me figure out who to vote for because I think most of the points made in this thread are fairly valid.
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