Was it possible to find these Spies?

[Judge Sam]

I'm kind of worried that maybe it wasn't even possible in this game to find out who is a Spy in the first 1-4 rounds. Do you think that's true or no?


I mean, you can't have much of a game if there is very little ways of anyone figuring out who the Spies are. But then again it could have been a lot of other things. Maybe many the Citizens were just, at that moment, inexperienced or looking for the wrong things, or maybe the Spies successfully changed people's minds and made them go after people who were not Spies, or maybe all of the Spies were just fantastic and that if a Spy wasn't that skilled then they would have been found out in the first few Exiles. Now that I think about it it could have been those things.


In past games (just fyi, I hate talking about past games right after the current ones finished but that's all some of you seem to enjoy talking about I've never had this problem of all the Spies being undetected so it is new to me.


I'm not saying the Citizens did everything perfect and yet they couldn't find Spies, because I think they did make a few mistakes, especially in the later rounds. I'm trying to think of ways they could have done things differently but I'm not exactly sure on it so I'll start that topic later.


But anyway, what were the clues that people should have seen to catch the Spies?

[Tenchi]

Although it got old, I still believe the idea of a group defending a certain person can lead somebody to be a spy. I mean, if Jessica or my name came up (so early), it would unusually call for us to defend or bring up another suspect immediately.

I think they should have caught on with Jessica and Bebe when Bebe's name was brought up by Judith and Jack. Specifically, why would Tenchi suddenly bring up a campaign against Jack when Jack just proposed a campaign against Bebe?

The thing is, Reicheru didn't believe this since it was opposite Tyson's strategy -- if a fellow spy's name came up, he would immediately follow the lead and push for it, and get the credit, embedding the other spy more into the Citizens. And to note, Reicheru was a powerful Citizen, so if she didn't believe it, most probably no other Citizen else will.

[Reicheru]

In many ways that's true, but remember I half ruled-out Claire because she suggested you and Bebe COULD be spies, when I said you probably WEREN'T. I also suspected Raphael quite a bit because he suggested Arthur and Matthew to me as spies, both in the final round and (especially in Matthew's case) somewhat earlier. I didn't think any spy would copy Tyson's tactics exactly (except Judith... *groans*)

If I was playing as a spy in this game, my tactics would be completely different. I think people would be watching for Tyson-ish behavior so I wouldn't do it. But in the end, I think each of the five spies had their own unique style that worked well for them, and there basically weren't any weak links. (That's unlike either of the previous two Spies games BTW.)

But I do think five spies was too many for what basically was a twenty-two man game. Once we knew that there might not have been exactly three (or two, in Judith's case) spies in the original fifteen, we all had to go back and re-evaluate our choices, and frankly I don't think everyone could be bothered. I also think the game was a little TOO big, although this isn't any criticism of Sam, just something to bear in mind for the future.

To answer the question: Yes, it was possible, but with five spies it was VERY hard. If I'd really been on form after Judith left - and you only have to take one look at my later confessionals to realise I wasn't - I would have pushed hard for Bebe after the investigation challenge, and Tenchi and Jessica when they went after Jack. Claire I never really thought was a serious suspect until the very last round, and Raphael was always on the mid to high end of my suspect list anyway but never at the very top. I think the cits NEED to push, which is why I think Judith played a better game than Carrie despite lasting a shorter time.

(And BTW, sorry to rip into you like this, Carrie, I'm not trying to completely destroy your confidence! I just think you got the tactics a bit wrong. Maybe in Spies 4...)

[Tenchi]

That leads me to another behavior and note:

Spies know who the Spies and Citizens are. So it is likely that they will defend Citizens that will inevitably will be exiled (which makes them look good and pitiful when their "friend" gets Exiled) and they will sell out their fellow spies, subtly, but will NEVER campaign for them (unless they are pulling off a Tyson (you're a noun!) ). This is what I mean when I tell Claire that I "placed her under the bus and pulled her out again"

[Reicheru]

Oy, Tenchi! I seem to remember hotly defending Davoni (exiled "despite" me), Nicole, Antonio (early on at least), Jenna (imprisoned), and quite a few others. My philosophy is if you have just one citizen who'll be exiled INSTEAD OF a spy each round, you'll never get a spy exiled. I think you five spies demonstrated that brilliantly.

As a spy, did I campaign against spies? Leo yes, because he would without a shadow of a doubt have killed us. (Leo, if you're reading this, I'm sorry, but it's true.) Allison - at the very end, yes, with great regrets, but there was no way she was surviving that exile whatever I did. (Thinking about it now, I wish I'd defended her to the end and pronounced myself shocked when she turned out to be a spy!) Myself... probably, I made one or two semi-suicidal mistakes to that effect!

But it's unfortunate I seem to be remembered for that instead of: the bad-actor-as-citizen persona (taken straight from a "safe" citizen in Spies 1); the faked role (Sam's suggestion to have one, my choice of role); the GENIUS idea of taking a convo Leo and I had with each other about who we should "recruit" as the third spy, changing a few words about, and turning it into a convo about who the most likely spy was; the idea of lumping virtually safe people in with others regarded as almost certain spies to get rid of the "semi-safes"; and various other little things that nobody had really done before, such as faking parts of confessionals to give to citizens, telling Adriana that if anybody else claimed to have chosen my "lottery number" (the first spy was chosen by lottery) they were most likely lying because I took so long, etc. It's not ALL about the backstabbing, people!

[Judith]

I pegged both Bebe and Raphael the first time I met them, dear! Yes, I do believe it was possible.

[Tenchi]

Judith-sama! I wonder how you did it!

I hope it isn't about the cheating issue thing...

[Reicheru]

I pegged both Bebe and Raphael the first time I met them, dear! Yes, I do believe it was possible.

Indeed, I pegged Raphael as well... he was defending Carrie!

[Judge Sam]

Ack, no offense Reicheru/David, but every time you answer a question 90% of it is referencing previous games and I just skip over that because I want to talk about this game at the moment, not games that took place a year ago. I think previous games had very, very little effect on the game. 17 out of 26 people had never played a Spies game before, so for you to say "I think people would be watching for Tyson-ish behavior so I wouldn't do it." when 65% of the players probably had not even heard of "Tyson" is dubious at best.

[Trina]

Well having played in previous spies game, I guess it's hard NOT to compare to past games but I understand what you are saying Sam.

Well if the players in this game came back for the next spies game, we can talk about this game all we want :-D

hehe

[Reicheru]

Ack, no offense Reicheru/David, but every time you answer a question 90% of it is referencing previous games and I just skip over that because I want to talk about this game at the moment, not games that took place a year ago. I think previous games had very, very little effect on the game. 17 out of 26 people had never played a Spies game before, so for you to say "I think people would be watching for Tyson-ish behavior so I wouldn't do it." when 65% of the players probably had not even heard of "Tyson" is dubious at best. [image]

WELL TENCHI BROUGHT IT UP AND HE'S NOT EVEN SPIES ALUMNI!!! But yeah, point taken. :-)

[Bebe]

Judith detecting me was a strange case though. As soon as I found out that Blake was playing Judith and that I was a Spy, I knew I had to get rid of him ASAP. When I beat him in the race by 10 minutes, he lost exile immunity and I won it instead. I knew through conversations with Shane, Jack, and Anneliese that it wouldn't be difficult to exile Judith, so I rubbed it in.

A LOT.

"oh judith i am so nervous about this exile even tho i have exile immunity!!"

I had a lot of fun saying that when I knew she was the target.

I like to toy with Blake. It's a lot of fun. It gave me away as a Spy, but I didn't care because I knew in a few days he'd be out of the game for good.

Don't know if/how she suspected Raphael.

I <3 you, Blake. And you know it.

[Carrie]

reicheru said:

(And BTW, sorry to rip into you like this, Carrie, I'm not trying to completely destroy your confidence! I just think you got the tactics a bit wrong. Maybe in Spies 4...)

No offense taken whatsoever. This was my first mafia-style game ever and I know that I made a lot of mistakes with my tactics. In the future, my foolproof strategy will be to ask myself, "What would David do?" and then do the exact opposite. I look forward to being 0-3 in my Spies career

[Bebe]

LOL! Danownage!!

[Reicheru]

ROFLMAO! Pwned!

[Shane]

Gosh, even I'm not 0-3...

0-2 isn't something to brag about though. :-p

[Tenchi]

LOL @ Reicheru!

I just see how different things are from actually experiencing the people from just reading them. So yeah, maybe its not really good (for me, especially) to reference other games.