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Post by Reicheru on Jun 24, 2007 19:43:19 GMT -5
I've sorta posed this question a few times in various threads now, but it's something that I think deserves a thread of its own. It's really one of who gets the "blame" for an exile that goes wrong.
A lot of citizens were exiled for a lot of reasons during Spies 3. Some I agreed with (in particular Jakub, Carrie and Judith especially) and some I certainly didn't (Jack and Jennipher immediately spring to mind). A lot of the exiles I took an active part in I feel a lot of guilt about - none more so than Judith's, but Jakub was pretty bad considering that we could have taken out an inactive instead. Others I don't as much.
Take Carrie. I go over my conversations with her now and I still can't see a single reason not to suspect her. I think she was unfortunate in that she was unlucky to be put "on the back foot" from the start - or singled out by the spies - but, given the information that I had, I don't blame myself for voting Carrie as much as I do other people, like Judith. Others might disagree and point out clues that Carrie was a citizen that I missed. That's fine.
With others - Judith, Jack and Jennipher in particular - I think that the clues were there from the start, and the citizens missed them. (Including - or even especially - myself in Judith's case!) So the blame in those exiles lies completely with the citizens who took them out.
My question is this: how much do you think a suspected citizen can be held responsible for his or her own exile? Do you think it's right to blame someone for "looking suspicious" - bearing in mind that we all have our own ideas on what "suspicious" looks like - or not doing enough actively to help the citizens? Or should the blame for a citizen's exile rest exclusively with the citizens doing the exiling?
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Post by Jakub on Jun 24, 2007 21:43:47 GMT -5
Personally, I don't think Citizens can be held responsible for their own Exiles. The only exception being if the person was intentionally trying to act suspicious, aka Davoni. How you act is one thing, how you're perceived is a whole 'nother story. And the latter you have no control over.
Take Adrianna, for example. When I saved her from Imprisonment, it was impossible for her to be a Spy. At the point Sam had already announced that the recruitments were finished, and had been finsihed before the Spies decided to Imprison her, and that there would not be any more. However, that didn't stop some people from thinking it was one big Spy ploy.
You have to keep in mind that in this game you have Citizens, Spies, Spies trying to act like Citizens, and occasionally Citizens trying to act like Spies. And any one of them could take any course of action, which could correctly or incorrectly be seen as guilt or innocence by the rest of the Burg. That's what makes the game interesting, there is no standard template for how a Citizen act or how a Spy acts.
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Post by Bebe on Jun 25, 2007 0:09:49 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Paul. Good post.
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 25, 2007 2:00:22 GMT -5
I agree with Jakub.
Citizens will try to act like Spies to stay longer in the game. The dumber they are, or the more suspicious they are, they avoid imprisonments.
Spies will act like Citizens for obvious reasons.
Therefore, we cannot really say it was Judith's or anybody's fault they got Exiled. Its really a confusing game...
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Post by Jessica on Jun 25, 2007 7:16:22 GMT -5
If it wasn't for citizens trying to look like spies to survive, I would say that it is to some extent a citizens fault for their own exile. Moreso depending on how many other citizens vote for them. But the mechanics of this game are vastly different from where I play from (Yves and Sam can vouch for me on this one) so alot of the same things don't apply here.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 25, 2007 17:52:09 GMT -5
Wow, good answers! But do you think a citizen can do so little - for whatever reason - to help the other citizens that (s)he is exiled almost by default?
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Post by Tenchi on Jun 25, 2007 20:44:09 GMT -5
The only way to catch a Spy then would be everybody being honest. Being honest means I don't care if I get Imprisoned. I'm not going to create a fake ability or lie about anything (maybe withhold information yes, but lie, never) to keep myself in the game.
Imagine if no Citizen lied in the game, then Spies would be the only ones lying, which makes the game a lot easier. The people who lie would certainly be Spies.
The thing is, with Citizens and Spies trying to lie, it got confusing to the point that Citizens were liars and Spies were telling the truth.
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Post by Carrie on Jun 30, 2007 12:18:34 GMT -5
For the most part, I agree with Jakub's post. However, in Rei's defense, I didn't do much to make people think I was a citizen. I started off with the switch to vote Jakub and it was all downhill from there. I knew I was near the top of many people's spy lists and I clammed up instead of vigorously defending myself and telling people of my own spy list. I did virtually nothing to help the citizens while by being suspicious the entire game I helped the spies. In my case, I deserved to be exiled.
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Post by Reicheru on Jun 30, 2007 18:04:53 GMT -5
I agree - but I still think you were really unlucky. And with a spydar like yours, you should definitely come back for Spies 4 as a citizen and kick some arse.  How is it the most vocal (me, Jack, Anneliese) were also the ones who always seemed to be wrong? |
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Post by Carrie on Jul 3, 2007 2:16:27 GMT -5
Haha, you guys weren't always wrong. I really think that if Jessica didn't sneak her way into your group things could have turned out so much differently. I'll probably apply for Spies 4 and I'll definitely apply to be a citizen.....gotta vote out a spy eventually, right?
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Post by Anneliese on Jul 17, 2007 16:30:05 GMT -5
You guys all make really valid points and I'd have to agree with pretty much everything. I do think that some of us citizens that were more cutthroat (me, rei, jack) are the reason why people like Carrie were exiled. My goal in this game was to confuse everyone and still manage to not be exiled, which I did but in an incredibly odd way... It surprises me now that the spies didn't manage to exile me when they were so close, and if I had gone, I know I would have been responsible for my exile... Anyway, I do want Carrie to come back next season because I think her spydar is top of the line... And I hope to be back next season... Although I have a good feeling I'll be a little less Anneliese-ish  |
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Post by Bebe on Jul 17, 2007 21:32:32 GMT -5
LOL Anneliese. From a super-aggressive player who kept her competitive nature under control this game, let me tell you, it's not easy.
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Post by Anneliese on Jul 17, 2007 22:39:25 GMT -5
Nobody will believe me when I say this, but I'm actually a very calm and collected person in real life. I felt bad about not really giving Anneliese any personality at the start of the game, so I pretty much tried to make her insane after week 2 or 3. I have a feeling that no matter what, if I am selected for next season, I will be able to make at least a more solid and consistent "character".
And I might be nice, but I still hate Arthur... And now that the game is over, I think I finally know why.
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Post by Bebe on Jul 19, 2007 2:09:26 GMT -5
If it wasn't for Anh, I would've scoffed at your statement that the people behind enormous characters could actually be calm and collected people.
Speaking of weird characters played by semi-normal people, what's the reason behind the Arthur hate?
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Post by Anneliese on Jul 19, 2007 16:21:00 GMT -5
I can't stand hypocrites, and I know for a fact Arthur was not a character... It just gets me mad because people sit there and complain even after the game is over, yet they never made a single move to contribute what they thought and actually push for it. There are tons of ways to make yourself a power player, and Arthur just never tried to be one but always complained that nobody would listen to him.
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Post by Tenchi on Jul 19, 2007 20:38:21 GMT -5
Anneliese = Adrianna |
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Post by Reicheru on Jul 19, 2007 20:48:29 GMT -5
Well I wasn't going to post again, but I couldn't NOT make the obvious response to this...  If it wasn't for Anh, I would've scoffed at your statement that the people behind enormous characters could actually be calm and collected people. Or the Adriana / Bebe dichotomy, come to that. Both played by the same person, but while one was a spy and yet a lot of fun, the other was a citizen and yet evil incarnate... And don't forget that Davoni, in the episode she was exiled, tried to sacrifice Jenna in order to ensure that Tiffany got to stay and use her investigation. She couldn't know that I was a spy and therefore it was doomed to failure, but it was one helluva plan all the same. Being forced to take out Tiffany instead of Jenna... that's the very definition of PAIN. On Arthur - I think you underestimate him, Anneliese. I think he DID make moves, but too late and erroneously. For example, I think Arthur was most responsible for Miles going when Jack refused to go after Bebe (against all of my instincts: I was disgusted that Jack did a total switch-over from Bebe within the space of a day, for no good reason that I could see, and then complained that I was undermining him! Can you wonder that after that for about five minutes there I began to question whether you and I, Anneliese, were wrong the whole time and Jack was a spy?) I also think Arthur played a fairly significant part in the final epsiode and the near-exile of Tenchi, at least to the extent of supporting me 100% on that. Arthur was really good in that last round. Unfortunately not everyone believed him. |
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Post by Anneliese on Jul 20, 2007 6:19:54 GMT -5
In that respect, I do agree that Arthur tried to help, but literally for the first 5 rounds he just sat there and bitched... And since I was taken out early in the 6th round, for most of my entire stay there, he seemed useless. He also refused to vote how other people were voting, even if he suspected them. I remember at one point he told me "You've been wrong every week, so why should I vote with you?" Which, is indeed a valid argument. But then I pointed out that all of his votes had been for people a week before their exile, and therefore wrong. His biggest defense was at least he wasn't leading a  ... So, I really don't know, I just think he could have stepped it up a bit since he always seemed to boast at how smart he was but how dumb the rest of us were. Sometimes you can wait 6 weeks to contribute something, but this season it seemed like the least compatible thing with everything that was going on. |
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