WORST CITIZEN EXILES.

[Reicheru]

This one's mainly to Spies alumni, so apologies to all the rest of you! It might be an interesting question to answer purely in the context of Spies 3 though.

It's fairly obvious which exiles were the BEST of the bunch: the ones that got out the spies! But what exiles were the absolute worst, strategy-wise or personally, for the citizens, in the Spies series, not counting inactives? Which of them were incredibly bad? Miles (S3), Roger (S2), Antonio (S2), Judith (S3) and Jakub (S3) have to rank up there with the worst of 'em for one reason or another, but here's my personal picks:


3) JACK, Spies 3. Because it marked the point the citizens stopped (a) thinking, or (b) caring, I'm still not sure which.

2) SAGE, Spies 1. Who was the psychic and obviously NOT a spy. Had he survived, he would undoubtedly have saved the person imprisoned in episode four, his best buddy and close ally Gerta! So naturally I'm biased. :-)

1) My top pick by miles: DAVONI, Spies 2. I thought this was shameful for every citizen involved. I say this despite Davoni doing many of the things I would urge citizens not to do: in particular, post secrets in the burg for all the spies to read, which a lot of people objected to. Nonetheless Sam should've used the more common mafia term "lynching" for this one, because it felt like that even to me, and I was a spy. It got UGLY. Whatever your personal feelings on this one - and a lot of people have strong feelings about it - what can't be denied is that it tore the citizens apart far more than Davoni had ever done when she was in the game. I can't even imagine how most of the citizens must have felt, but Rashma and a few others made their feelings pretty clear. It was at least partly as a result of the fallout from this exile that the spies managed to last as long as they did - the citizens simply refused to work together from this point on. Rashma blocked people, Adriana's group became more reclusive and self-contained, and many citizens refused to talk to other cits.


That's my personal list (and try to remember it IS only my opinions - in other words, no Davoni justifications please, you're not going to change my opinion on that one and I don't want to start a flame war in this thread!) - what does everyone else think? What do you think were the worst citizen exiles in this game, or the previous ones if you were in them? I'd particularly like to hear from Sam on this one.

[Trina]

My list is similar to yours Reicher.

3.) Davoni - I played Davoni last spies game and I do agree this was a bit of a weird exile for me. I think a lot of votes that went into that round was based on emotions and Adriana really used "evidence" that she gained from other people and assumptions without really talking to me about anything. I think after I came out saying I was a counteragent, we blocked each other from talking and basically refused to say anything to each other. That was how it was with Karl as well I feel but to a lesser extent. I think that in order for citizens to completely be assured that someone is a spy, they have to directly talk to them as much as possible and I think the lack of communication between Davoni and the main people who wanted her out, made it seem more emotional rather than strategical. From my perspective, Davoni made things and said things so bluntly and risky that made her too much of a risktaking spy.

2.) Jack - Definitely a tough one. After Anneliese practically confirmed she was the builder and said that Reicheru and Jack were at least confirmed, voting him out made no sense. The round that Trina was exiled, would have made sense for Jack to be exiled because Anneliese "lied" about her ability to the burg but after Trina confirmed Anneliese as a citizen, and after it was revelaed Anneliese was really in fact the builder, she was speaking the truth on Jack and Reicheru I feel. That made it so weird for people to go about and vote out jack. I think Taylor voted Jack based on emotions after what Jack did to her in revealing the gift giver or something earlier in the day but this was a bad one to boot.

1.) Arthur - This is the one that I really feel should be #1 on everyone's list. Although I wasn't in the game, I can't say I rank #1 because it was a strategically bad move but I don't know what strategy was involved but the fact that if we had not exiled Arthur, the citizens would have probably been able to win the game and destroy the spies or at least get more spies out in the long run. With Bruce not online to talk to anyone about the vote and only listening to Claire, it was kind of a bad exile. The possibilities that could have opened up if Bruce voted along with Reicheru and the group would have made the game easier as the game continued on.

At least these are teh worst exiles to me .

[Reicheru]

Hell yeah! Arthur was #1 for me too when I thought about this post beforehand... I don't know how I managed to leave that one out!

[Trina]

PS.

My grammar is so bad. I should proofread <_<

[Jakub]

For the 1 billionth time, Exiling Davoni was a necessary evil. Period.

3) ROGER - This is where the shit started to hit the fan in Spies 2. Davoni, in danger, needed a way to save herself from Exile. She tells people that she's a Counteragent, and that she investigated Roger who came up Spy. Enough people buy the story, and Roger, a Citizen, goes. This infuriates Adriana. The Spies choose to Imprison her next round, but Karl the Psychic intervenes. Figuring she has nothing left to lose, Adriana goes all out. The Burg divides itself between Adriana's side and Davoni's side, quickly snowballing until all hell breaks loose.

2) WINSTON - 17 votes. 17 freakin' votes! How can that many people be on the same page and just not realize it? No one thought it the least bit suspicious that the entire Burg had agreed so decisively? No one thought that this was just a little too easy? Especially with the way names were flying around left and right. I'm still baffled, befuddled, and bewildered at how this happened.

1) ARTHUR - I'm not saying Arthur was free from suspicion. He could have been a Spy, it was a possibility. I'm not holding this one strictly against Bruce. I'm putting this at the top of my list because the Citizens had it spelled out for them: VOTE JESSICA! The Citizens had perhaps the most valuable tool someone in this game could have: the insight from previously eliminated players. But they choose not to heed that advice. To use Arthur's words "Ah, she would have been gone two rounds later, so close enough." But because the Citizens failed to catch a Spy, there was no two rounds later. So I guess it wasn't quite close enough after all.

[Bebe]

3) Antonio (S2) - His identity was a well-known fact: He was spies1Mercedes, who is considered the most incompetent Spy of all time (he was great as a Citizen, but as a Spy ... LOL sorry Karl, you know I love ya). There was no chance he'd be the original Spy, no chance he'd be recruited, and only a 1 in 19 shot that he'd have won the Spy role in the lottery. Anyway, the votes that round were heading towards an ACTUAL SPY when stupid Rodney and Nicole thought voting for Antonio, and using accusation votes to top it off, was a brilliant idea. If it had been any other players other than Rodney or Nicole, I would still be asking myself how anyone could be that stupid. Plus, Tyson the Spy threw in an additional accusation vote, which was used to blow his cover in round 10.

2) Anna (S2) - I was out of the game at that point, but I was absolutely dumbfounded that people were stupid enough to think she was a Spy, especially after she was like "Please vote me out. The closest thing I have to a grandfather died and my heart is just not in this game anymore". That was a totally idiotic exile.

1) Arthur (S3) - I loved it because it won the game for my side. But if I had been a citizen, I would've been furious. I really think had Taylor used her gift that round more wisely, she easily would've gotten a Spy out instead. I place a lot of strategic fuckups on her and Bruce that round.

[Bebe]

Also, big red X on Davoni's exile being a necessary evil.

[Reicheru]

bebe said:

Also, big red X on Davoni's exile being a necessary evil.

W-o-w. That I did NOT expect. Or does a red "X" mean something different in America than it does here (a BIG negative)?

I totally agree, although I'm astonished you do. I mean, if I was going to exile every citizen who said stuff on the forums that I thought shouldn't have been repeated or who acted divisively, Anneliese would've been fishfood. Anneliese IMO was a LOT worse than Davoni in terms of what they actually did, yet I think Anneliese was also in many ways a bloody good citizen who really added to the game - as much as anybody can be called that in a game where every single spy survives and goes on to win!

That said, I also have to agree with Paul about Roger's exile and its effects, although I was thinking of him for a different reason: in Spies 1, Roger was Soraya, perhaps the single strongest citizen in the whole game. Getting Roger out was a huge victory for the spies, although I didn't realise it until after I knew who he was.

And Bebe is right about Anna and Antonio, although I was thinking of exiles that were bad for the citizens. I think those two exiles did more than any other to give me away to Karl at the end.

[Bebe]

Big red X means I agree. I'm in total agreement with Jakub. It's a Survivor Sucks thing.

Like "DC APPRECIATION THREAD"

Big red X

[Judge Sam]

Hmm... well I'm going to do my list from a different perspective lol. For me a "Worst Citizen Exile" would be one that is one that is a missed opportunity that also Exiles a very valuable, helpful and honest Citizen. Even if everyone totally screwed up but then voted out a semi-inactive Citizen, I can't really be angry about that lol so I don't consider that bad in my perspective.


6) Arthur's Exile: This should probably be higher, but it was only one Citizen's fault that this happened. Plus, he was super suspicious throughout the whole game. And despite some of your beliefs I think Bruce did contribute a lot of positive Citizen things elsewhere.


5) Jennipher's Exile: I don't understand this one, must of been some indecision + bandwagoning. It's definitely important to look for a certain "weirdness" in Spies but from my limited perspective this wasn't it lol.


4) Davoni's Exile: Absolutely tragic. <3


3) Sage's Exile: Also quite sad, can't really remember too much about this other than I think it was undeserved.


2) Jakub's Exile: I can't believe y'all voted out an INACTIVE over Jakub in the revote!!! ARGH!! Regardless of strategy, vote out the inactives please. (but don't whine to me if anyone suspects you as a Spy because you want to vote out inactives) To think if only I had raised that penalty from 5 votes to 6 votes it wouldn't have happened... still, major blame on Reicheru, Miles, Carrie, Jennipher, Judith, and Leena for this.


1) Jack's Exile: Y'all went psycho on this one lol. Worst.Tragedy.Ever + Biggest.Loss.Ever

[Bebe]

(Disclaimer: I know Reicheru will disagree with everything here and there's a really long-winded post coming. I'm posting anyway.)


I'm scoffing at the notion that Sage's exile was undeserved.

In Spies 1, I MAJORLY wanted Sage out. He was a HUGE suspect of mine and I wanted him out ASAP.

1) Sage was super shady - his personality made him seem really slimey and Spylike
2) Sage totally rubbed me the wrong way with his arrogance
3) Sage was pushing hardcore for everyone to vote Damien, the inactive - there was no way that guy was a Spy, and there was no way I was going to waste an exile to vote Damien out. But the Spies would want us to waste an exile because this is, after all, a numbers game.
4) Enough people refused to vote for Sage, including you David, making me think his fellow Spies were protecting him.

I cheered when Sage left, actually. It meant I had saved an ally (Marion, who received the second highest number of votes), and got out my #1 suspect.



Sam and I have always disagreed on the inactives issue. Heh.

Given the choice of the Jakubs v. the Tylers, I will vote for the Jakubs every time.

I shudder at the thought of wasting an exile to vote out an inactive. It's a waste of an exile. You need every chance you can get to vote out your suspects.

Strategy > drama potential

That's really where Sam and I disagree.

[Tenchi]

I agree with Bebe. I only kept Tyler for the purpose of making the citizens waste an exile. If I was a Cit, I would go with voting out Jakub, hands down.

More thoughts on the worst exiles later.

[Reicheru]

bebe said:

(Disclaimer: I know Reicheru will disagree with everything here and there's a really long-winded post coming. I'm posting anyway.)

You're right, here's a long-winded post. But I don't disagree with everything - far from it.

In the first few days, I was very suspicious of Sage. That changed after I talked to him seriously and realised how much he was doing to get the spies out and how much info he was willing to share. After that, Sage wasn't suspicious to me. I KNEW he was a citizen. This wasn't Spies 3, where we had spies who were capable of behaving just as citizens would (behavior borne of long experience of mafia games in most cases!) The things he'd done made it a logical impossibility that he was a spy, just like Frank. And nobody believed me about Frank. Soraya, Gindi and a few others DID believe me about Sage, but it wasn't enough. This goes back to the whole idea of "whose fault is it that a citizen is exiled - the citizen or the players who exiled him?" In Sage's fault, he had done LOTS of stuff to try and work out who the spies were. (With some success - I think he was the first one to seriously mention Mercedes as a suspect, at least to me.) Nobody took any notice.

As for his being "slimy" and "arrogant", don't make it personal. I'm not exactly a vision of humility myself. As well as that, just because you perceive someone a certain way doesn't make it so. A lot of people liked Sage and trusted him - Soraya, Caroline and Frank, for example. And wasn't your biggest ally in Spies 2 Jenna? Don't even get me started on that one... Let's just say that if we'd exiled her and I'd been a cit, I would feel much the same way as you did about Davoni. Difference is that even Jenna - stupid, obnoxious, manipulative and just plain bitchy as she was - was still a citizen and therefore her exile would be a failure for the citizens. (BTW Blake, I put this down to the character, not you, because I really liked Gindi and - after the first few days - Judith.)

MARION... I completely agree here, it was def. a good thing she was saved, although my reasons are different to yours. I pretty much allied myself to her as soon as I realised, after unsuccessfully trying to get her out, that she wasn't a spy. (It also gave away the fact that there was a spy in the Marion votors, and of the four remaining other than myself, only one was a credible suspect to me - Gigi. So that vote effectively handed me a spy on a plate.)

Inactives... now this one I'm with DC on. We shouldn't HAVE to exile inactives. They should be taken out of the game, castrated and shot. Well, maybe not quite that much. But this has been gone into many times over in the Inactives post. Taking out Jakub was a MASSIVE mistake, but primarily because he was a previous winner who could've contributed a lot. It had nothing to do with the fact that he was up against an inactive. Tyler wasn't a serious suspect, Jakub was.

Should he have gone? Nope... nor should Davoni, or Roger, or Judith, or anyone else mentioned here. Every citizen exile is a FAILURE, no matter what your personal feelings are about that citizen.

[Judith]

1. Judith - SHAME I SAY! SHAME!!

2. The rest. Why bother?

[Matthew]

I wish i could make a big list, but this was my first season =[.

The worst 3 from this season were....

3) Trina - Im sorta having a little trouble fillin this spot, but it was kinda a not good exile. I mean, i didnt really think you were a spy, and it just sucked to see you go right there, in that way. Like I said i just needed to fill this spot and this felt best here i guess >_>.

2) Arthur - Do i need to say it? THE GAME LOSING EXILE. I mean, it just sucked to watch the game end within that moment.

1) Jack - No it wasn't a game losing exile, but it definitly brough forward an easy end. The person who was in certain, the biggest help, being gone was a huge hurt to every citizen and very well sealed the deal. Jack's exile was a horrible one =[.

[Jakub]

bebe said:

Given the choice of the Jakubs v. the Tylers, I will vote for the Jakubs every time.

I shudder at the thought of wasting an exile to vote out an inactive. It's a waste of an exile. You need every chance you can get to vote out your suspects.

But the Tylers are going to end up going in the subsequent Exiles, wasting them anyway. I'd rather get rid of them sooner rather than later. Later you've had more time to collect more information and make a more educate decision.

[Tenchi]

The downside of that is what if the presumed inactive is just having some trouble with the internet/work that he/she will come back next episode?

I guess there is always two sides...

Worst Exiles:

3. Jennipher - Took the bullet when everybody "fixed" the bunker drama. They were so close into hitting two spies and yet they turned their fingers to point at Jenn when they "made the numbers add up".

2. Trina - I mean, if she held her ability for one more round (meaning Jack would be exiled that round), there would be much more suspicion on me. And me being Trina's number one suspect, I would have been Do or Died.

1. Jack - It was the most senseless exile and I don't know why people bought the theories we made. They were quite outrageous. Not to mention Jack couldve won it for the Citizens if the Bebe exile pushed through.